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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:50 am 
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serotonot wrote:
wotan wrote:
You can look at it this way. Say that there are only 500 confirmed cases of seasonal H3N2 in your country this year. If you didn't get vaccinated you might be one of the very few unlucky ones to die from it. This is basically what our daughter's pulmonologist told us when I queried him about the seasonal vaccine this year.

I've never had any influenza vaccinations and so far haven't considered on taking one. I trust the natures way of dealing with the seasonal influenza. But you missed my point. Dr Niman has said in various different threads here that There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine, or anywhere else in Europe. If your friends had influenza, they had swine H1N1. Most cases of swine H1N1 are mild with symptoms are IDENTICAL to seasonal flu. You cannot have influenza without having swine H1N1 in Europe. Over 99% of influenza A in Europe, including Ukraine, is swine flu. However, the mild and serious cases are ALL caused by swine H1N1.
That means that there ain't that H3N2 in my country as it is in Europe. If there is after all for example those 500 cases, in my opinion it's kinda unprofessional to claim that ALL flu is swine flu if it ain't. Then the proper term would be most of the cases or something similar. And I don't mean to piss anybody off. Just wanted to hear an opinion about this all, because if ALL influenza is swine flu, it's pointless and stupid to risk people's health with "regular" vaccinations if the whole virus is nonexistent this year.
wotan wrote:
Flu vaccines are not perfect, and you can only get lifetime immunity (if even this is really possible) to the particular strain that infects you. A small amount of change may mean your body can mount an imperfect defense or has to start from scratch and treat it is a new virus.

Yeah, but doesn't that basically mean that if I suffer a flu my immunity should be at least on the same level than the vaccinated people? And if the deal is so, why are so many US federals urging people to take the vaccination, not just taking it themselves and let people decide themselves about their lives.


The amount of non-swine Flu A appears to be less than 1%, and there doesn't seem to be signs of that changing. But Flu B apparently can compete better with novel Flu A viruses than can older Flu A viruses, (I am not aware of any evidence that B viruses were introduced to humans since 1968) and its prevalence may increase later in the flu season proper. Therefore there is still reason to receive the vaccine to protect against the B virus later in the season. I believe in a normal flu year there are many more cases of B than A viruses. Granted, the people who benefit most from the seasonal shot are mostly the opposite demographic from those who benefit the most from the swine shot.

Your chances of having a severe reaction from a flu vaccine are far lower than having a severe reaction to the flu. Therefore, the vaccine provides a degree of protection with much less risk versus taking a chance on getting sick and hoping you aren't in the 10-20% who wind up hospitalized.

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I am not a doctor, virologist, or any of type of medical/life sciences professional.

I am a layman with a background in the physical sciences.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:58 am 
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niman wrote:
Each datapoint has a link with the source data. I believe interpretation is quite straight-forward.

We can start a whole new round of discussion about the straightforwardness of the information...but it was already discussed in earlier posts of this topic. So I will just try to show you on an example, how unstraightforward on my opinion the data is.
That is what FluTracker map show for L'viv, Ukraine.
"Reported Location: L\'viv, Ukraine
Confirmed/Probable Cases: 104056
Fatal Cases: 37
This is an aggregated report based on 12 reports near the same location."
1. Reported location is not L'viv, Ukraine. This data is for Lviv oblast. This is not straight-forward.
2. There is no link to a source data. This is again not straightforward.
3. Your interpretation of the data is as much misleading as it can only be in this case. I mean Confirmed/Probable cases. Compare to the following: Dead/probably dead: 100. Dead or probably?
The number your are giving as Confirmed/Probably cases:104056, probably (because there is no link to source) is taken from Official Ministry report. This number includes those ill on different form of Inluenza, ARI, and other illnesses. You can only suggest, that some of them are caused by H1N1. And this has nothing to do with word "Confirmed". As for the probable cases of H1N1:104056 this was also not taken from the report. This is also is not straightforward.
Compare: Warsaw, Poland: Confirmed/Probable cases: 4; Lviv, Ukraine: 104056. Question is: No one in Warsaw i ill on ARI or Influenza? Probably this is not true. And vise versa.
The whole "Confirmed/Probably" I guess was taken at some point as template, and it would be hard to change that in a map, but this does not make information straight-forward. It just is not.

All I am saying that information given in a map with such obviously self Interpreted description, that is way different from source, is no value and IS misleading.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:26 pm 
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serotonot wrote:
niman wrote:
Although the seasonal flu season has started, most seasonal flu really gets going in December and peaks in February, so there is a possibility there will be more (some) seasonal flu later. The seasonal flu shot covers that possibility (and it also has influenza B). However, the real demand and need will be for the swine flu shot, because it is already here had can produce significant problems, especially for those under 65.

So now ALL is already MOST. I know this must sound like bragging and just being an ass, but I really just try to understand all this and there's so much different rumours and conflicts in "information" we've been given that even small "errors" like changing the word 'most' to 'all' can create quite radical misunderstandings.

After all these stories about Baxter's contaminated vaccinations and millions of other stories, I just find it very hard to trust the establishment and give myself out as a guinea pig for the med-business.

ALL = more than 99% = MOST. The numbers are the same (and QUITE easy to understand).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:28 pm 
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MIHICTP wrote:
niman wrote:
Each datapoint has a link with the source data. I believe interpretation is quite straight-forward.

We can start a whole new round of discussion about the straightforwardness of the information...but it was already discussed in earlier posts of this topic. So I will just try to show you on an example, how unstraightforward on my opinion the data is.
That is what FluTracker map show for L'viv, Ukraine.
"Reported Location: L\'viv, Ukraine
Confirmed/Probable Cases: 104056
Fatal Cases: 37
This is an aggregated report based on 12 reports near the same location."
1. Reported location is not L'viv, Ukraine. This data is for Lviv oblast. This is not straight-forward.
2. There is no link to a source data. This is again not straightforward.
3. Your interpretation of the data is as much misleading as it can only be in this case. I mean Confirmed/Probable cases. Compare to the following: Dead/probably dead: 100. Dead or probably?
The number your are giving as Confirmed/Probably cases:104056, probably (because there is no link to source) is taken from Official Ministry report. This number includes those ill on different form of Inluenza, ARI, and other illnesses. You can only suggest, that some of them are caused by H1N1. And this has nothing to do with word "Confirmed". As for the probable cases of H1N1:104056 this was also not taken from the report. This is also is not straightforward.
Compare: Warsaw, Poland: Confirmed/Probable cases: 4; Lviv, Ukraine: 104056. Question is: No one in Warsaw i ill on ARI or Influenza? Probably this is not true. And vise versa.
The whole "Confirmed/Probably" I guess was taken at some point as template, and it would be hard to change that in a map, but this does not make information straight-forward. It just is not.

All I am saying that information given in a map with such obviously self Interpreted description, that is way different from source, is no value and IS misleading.

We can agree to disagree. Its over 100,000 confirmed/probable H1N1 cases in Lviv, as indicated in government report. There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:40 pm 
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niman wrote:
We can agree to disagree. Its over 100,000 confirmed/probable H1N1 cases in Lviv, as indicated in government report. There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine.

It says to me:
"We are not going to fix none of the mistakes. We are not going to post source of Government report. We are not going to give information, the same as in report, but will treat it freely, according to over wishes."
"Its over 100,000 confirmed/probable H1N1 cases in Lviv, as indicated in government report." -this in not information from the report.
As for "There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine" tell it to me. I live in Lviv, Ukraine all my life and I know what seasonal flue means. With or without H1N1 at this time there would be a lot of people with influenza and ARI. More or less the same each year.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:12 pm 
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MIHICTP wrote:
niman wrote:
We can agree to disagree. Its over 100,000 confirmed/probable H1N1 cases in Lviv, as indicated in government report. There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine.

It says to me:
"We are not going to fix none of the mistakes. We are not going to post source of Government report. We are not going to give information, the same as in report, but will treat it freely, according to over wishes."
"Its over 100,000 confirmed/probable H1N1 cases in Lviv, as indicated in government report." -this in not information from the report.
As for "There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine" tell it to me. I live in Lviv, Ukraine all my life and I know what seasonal flue means. With or without H1N1 at this time there would be a lot of people with influenza and ARI. More or less the same each year.

Flu Trends shows a sharp increase over prior years, except this year its H1N1 and young previously healthy adults are dying with hemorrhagic disease.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:25 pm 
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When 97% - 99% of all confirmed flu is Swine, do you say "All" or "Most"? Perhaps a combination "Most All" would be better. :think:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
MIHICTP wrote:
niman wrote:
We can agree to disagree. Its over 100,000 confirmed/probable H1N1 cases in Lviv, as indicated in government report. There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine.

It says to me:
"We are not going to fix none of the mistakes. We are not going to post source of Government report. We are not going to give information, the same as in report, but will treat it freely, according to over wishes."
"Its over 100,000 confirmed/probable H1N1 cases in Lviv, as indicated in government report." -this in not information from the report.
As for "There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine" tell it to me. I live in Lviv, Ukraine all my life and I know what seasonal flue means. With or without H1N1 at this time there would be a lot of people with influenza and ARI. More or less the same each year.

WHO makes it official:

Laboratory testing in Ukraine has confirmed pandemic H1N1 influenza virus in samples taken from patients in two of the most affected regions. As the pandemic virus has rapidly become the dominant influenza strain worldwide, it can be assumed that most cases of influenza in Ukraine are caused by the H1N1 virus.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:28 pm 
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Posts: 27439
Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
MIHICTP wrote:
niman wrote:
We can agree to disagree. Its over 100,000 confirmed/probable H1N1 cases in Lviv, as indicated in government report. There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine.

It says to me:
"We are not going to fix none of the mistakes. We are not going to post source of Government report. We are not going to give information, the same as in report, but will treat it freely, according to over wishes."
"Its over 100,000 confirmed/probable H1N1 cases in Lviv, as indicated in government report." -this in not information from the report.
As for "There is NO seasonal flu in Ukraine" tell it to me. I live in Lviv, Ukraine all my life and I know what seasonal flue means. With or without H1N1 at this time there would be a lot of people with influenza and ARI. More or less the same each year.

The map says the number of confirmed/probable, which matches the number of influenza/ARI in the governemnt report. The data is VERY easy to understand. Viewers can decide if that association is valid or not and view the map accordingly.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:29 pm 
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niman wrote:
Flu Trends shows a sharp increase over prior years, except this year its H1N1 and young previously healthy adults are dying with hemorrhagic disease.

and yet it does not gives anyone to treat information freely.


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