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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:20 pm
Posts: 117
Here is a recent interview of Dr. Adrian Gibbs by Steve Martin:
http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-52956/TS-305315.mp3
The interview happens between time 21:23 and 59:40

Alternatively, one can go to Aroostook Watchmen Archive section and look for 12/22/2009 interview:
http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=52956&cmd=tc

The interview is all about science and scientific hypothesis. Congratulation to Steve Martin for a job well done. Dr. Gibbs is articulate and gracious. Steve asked good questions and Dr. Gibbs was able to fully expound his ideas and views without any interruption.

Dr. Gibbs is a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science. His scientific accomplishment is immense and his hypothesis should be taken seriously.
http://www.rsbs.anu.edu.au/WallaceDarwin/Adrian%20Gibbs/Adrian_Gibbs_cv_for_EF%5B3%5D.pdf
http://www.virologyj.com/content/pdf/1743-422x-6-207.pdf

Dr. Adrian Gibbs interview by Steve Martin @ 27:36 ~ 29:10 wrote:
Steve Martin: ... It takes quite a stretch of probability for the virus to have been created in the way that most of the main stream media, at least in this country, is telling us that it was created, that is by various pigs from various continents getting together at the same time.
Dr. Adrian Gibbs: Yup. That's it. You absolutely hit on the crucial issue. That is, when we first saw (you know colleagues with like mind as myself) the evidence. The evidence is gene sequences. And you take their gene sequences and you compare them with other ones in the computer. You draw up their relationships in a tree. It looks to us a very strange looking tree. The influenza virus has 8 genes. So in essence, you can look at the genealogy of influenza eight times. And what has been noticed and published before by people was that this virus has six of its genes from a North American virus and two of its genes from a virus in Eurasia. Now, that in itself is unusual. You know it is unusual in that the Eurasian virus has never been found in North America, because you have very good and strict quarantine regulations and vice versa. The one in North America had never been found in Europe. And yet here, this virus had apparently managed to break the barrier and get through.


Dr. Adrian Gibbs interview by Steve Martin @ 58:09 ~ 58.48 wrote:
Steve Martin: And we got to stop placing barriers to genuine scientific inquiries.
Dr. Adrian Gibbs: Absolutely.
Steve Martin: Every one who has the kind of knowledge level you have, Sir, should be given direct and immediate access to information.
Dr. Adrian Gibbs: Yup. That's right. Yup.
Steve Martin: Well, I want to thank you so much for what you've done to this point. And I certainly hope that you will avail yourself with the opportunity to join with Dr. Niman and discuss this. Because we need to have both theories out there and presented equally ..
Dr. Adrian Gibbs: Yes. I certainly will. I am trying to finish some work at the moment. But I will be getting in touch with him. Because, the more discussion we get the better.
Steve Martin: Wonderful. That's terrific. And that is the goal of this show. ...


I would look forward to Dr. Adrian Gibbs joining this forum.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:42 am
Posts: 43726
Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
j6pack123 wrote:
Here is a recent interview of Dr. Adrian Gibbs by Steve Martin:
http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-52956/TS-305315.mp3
The interview happens between time 21:23 and 59:40

Alternatively, one can go to Aroostook Watchmen Archive section and look for 12/22/2009 interview:
http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=52956&cmd=tc

The interview is all about science and scientific hypothesis. Congratulation to Steve Martin for a job well done. Dr. Gibbs is articulate and gracious. Steve asked good questions and Dr. Gibbs was able to fully expound his ideas and views without any interruption.

Dr. Gibbs is a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science. His scientific accomplishment is immense and his hypothesis should be taken seriously.
http://www.rsbs.anu.edu.au/WallaceDarwin/Adrian%20Gibbs/Adrian_Gibbs_cv_for_EF%5B3%5D.pdf
http://www.virologyj.com/content/pdf/1743-422x-6-207.pdf

Dr. Adrian Gibbs interview by Steve Martin @ 27:36 ~ 29:10 wrote:
Steve Martin: ... It takes quite a stretch of probability for the virus to have been created in the way that most of the main stream media, at least in this country, is telling us that it was created, that is by various pigs from various continents getting together at the same time.
Dr. Adrian Gibbs: Yup. That's it. You absolutely hit on the crucial issue. That is, when we first saw (you know colleagues with like mind as myself) the evidence. The evidence is gene sequences. And you take their gene sequences and you compare them with other ones in the computer. You draw up their relationships in a tree. It looks to us a very strange looking tree. The influenza virus has 8 genes. So in essence, you can look at the genealogy of influenza eight times. And what has been noticed and published before by people was that this virus has six of its genes from a North American virus and two of its genes from a virus in Eurasia. Now, that in itself is unusual. You know it is unusual in that the Eurasian virus has never been found in North America, because you have very good and strict quarantine regulations and vice versa. The one in North America had never been found in Europe. And yet here, this virus had apparently managed to break the barrier and get through.


Dr. Adrian Gibbs interview by Steve Martin @ 58:09 ~ 58.48 wrote:
Steve Martin: And we got to stop placing barriers to genuine scientific inquiries.
Dr. Adrian Gibbs: Absolutely.
Steve Martin: Every one who has the kind of knowledge level you have, Sir, should be given direct and immediate access to information.
Dr. Adrian Gibbs: Yup. That's right. Yup.
Steve Martin: Well, I want to thank you so much for what you've done to this point. And I certainly hope that you will avail yourself with the opportunity to join with Dr. Niman and discuss this. Because we need to have both theories out there and presented equally ..
Dr. Adrian Gibbs: Yes. I certainly will. I am trying to finish some work at the moment. But I will be getting in touch with him. Because, the more discussion we get the better.
Steve Martin: Wonderful. That's terrific. And that is the goal of this show. ...


I would look forward to Dr. Adrian Gibbs joining this forum.

I invited Dr Gibbs last month, but at this time he is swamped with other issues. I also sent him the sequences from the swine in Mexico, which he will look at.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:42 am
Posts: 43726
Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
j6pack123 wrote:
Here is a recent interview of Dr. Adrian Gibbs by Steve Martin:
http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-52956/TS-305315.mp3
The interview happens between time 21:23 and 59:40

So in essence, you can look at the genealogy of influenza eight times. And what has been noticed and published before by people was that this virus has six of its genes from a North American virus and two of its genes from a virus in Eurasia. Now, that in itself is unusual. You know it is unusual in that the Eurasian virus has never been found in North America, because you have very good and strict quarantine regulations and vice versa. The one in North America had never been found in Europe. And yet here, this virus had apparently managed to break the barrier and get through.



I would look forward to Dr. Adrian Gibbs joining this forum.[/quote]
The CDC acknowledged that their original statement that pandemic H1N1 with a North American HA and a Eurasian NA had never been seen previously was FALSE.

A series of swine H1N1 isolates from 2005 have a North American HA and a Eurasian NA. Below are the closest isolates to one of those 2005 Thia isolates from Chonburi (which of course is 4 YEARS prior to the the discovery of the 2009 pandemic strain):

The top HA sequences (other than those from Thailand) match HA in North America swine:

dbj|AB434320.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH589/2... 3372 0.0
dbj|AB434328.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chachoengsao/NIAH5... 3364 0.0
gb|EU296601.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chachoengsao/NIAH58... 3350 0.0
gb|EU296599.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH589/20... 3340 0.0
dbj|AB434304.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH9469/... 2872 0.0
dbj|AB434312.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH977/2... 2864 0.0
gb|FJ688266.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Thailand/HF6/2005(H... 2803 0.0
gb|EU296603.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/05CB1/2005... 2803 0.0
gb|EF101749.1| Influenza A virus (A/Thailand/271/2005(H1N1)) ... 2775 0.0
gb|EU296605.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/06CB2/2006... 2753 0.0
dbj|AB434336.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Saraburi/NIAH13021... 2599 0.0
gb|EU296607.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Saraburi/NIAH13021/... 2595 0.0
gb|CY024978.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/88/1977(H... 2242 0.0
gb|CY024970.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/87/1977(H... 2242 0.0
gb|CY024954.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/84/1977(H... 2242 0.0
gb|CY022301.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/82/1977(H... 2242 0.0
gb|CY028427.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/4/1978(H1... 2218 0.0
gb|CY027515.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/5/1978(H1... 2218 0.0
gb|CY027307.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/2/1978(H1... 2218 0.0
gb|CY027523.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/8/1978(H1... 2202 0.0
gb|CY026139.1| Influenza A virus (A/Wisconsin/301/1976(H1N1))... 2202 0.0
gb|CY024994.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/663/1980(... 2202 0.0
gb|CY022994.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/629/1980(... 2202 0.0
gb|CY022445.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/641/1980(... 2202 0.0
gb|CY022453.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/661/1980(... 2194 0.0
gb|CY022373.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Nebraska/123/1977(H... 2194 0.0
gb|CY022461.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/8/1980(H1... 2190 0.0
gb|CY022365.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Minnesota/5892-7/19... 2187 0.0
gb|CY022349.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Kentucky/1/1976(H1N... 2187 0.0
gb|CY036799.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/30954/197... 2179 0.0
gb|CY028187.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/30747/197... 2179 0.0
gb|CY024941.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/48/1977(H... 2179 0.0
gb|CY022978.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ontario/1/1981(H1N1... 2179 0.0
gb|CY022421.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/11/1980(H... 2179 0.0
gb|CY022269.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/10/1977(H... 2179 0.0
gb|CY026451.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ontario/6/1981(H1N1... 2171 0.0
gb|CY026443.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ontario/3/1981(H1N1... 2171 0.0
gb|CY026419.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/23/1976(H... 2171 0.0
gb|CY022389.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ontario/7/1981(H1N1... 2171 0.0
gb|CY022381.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ontario/4/1981(H1N1... 2171 0.0
gb|CY022053.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/17/1976(H... 2171 0.0
gb|CY022045.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/15/1976(H... 2171 0.0
gb|EU735794.1| Influenza A virus (A/chicken/PA/35154/1991(H1N... 2163 0.0
gb|CY027507.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/2/1985(H1N1)) ... 2163 0.0
gb|CY024962.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/86/1977(H... 2163 0.0
gb|CY022325.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/3/1985(H1N1)) ... 2163 0.0
gb|EU742636.1| Influenza A virus (A/turkey/KS/4880/1980(H1N1)... 2155 0.0
gb|CY026435.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ontario/2/1981(H1N1... 2155 0.0
gb|CY022317.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/1/1985(H1N1)) ... 2155 0.0
gb|CY028179.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/3/1978(H1... 2147 0.0
gb|CY026459.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/10/1976(H... 2147 0.0
gb|CY022101.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/4/1976(H1N1)) ... 2147 0.0
gb|CY022037.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/7/1976(H1... 2147 0.0
gb|CY022029.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/3/1976(H1... 2147 0.0
gb|CY024933.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Minnesota/24/1975(H... 2139 0.0
gb|CY022357.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Minnesota/27/1976(H... 2139 0.0
gb|CY022061.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/19/1976(H... 2139 0.0
gb|CY022069.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/1/1976(H1N1)) ... 2139 0.0
gb|CY025010.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Kansas/3024/1987(H1... 2123 0.0
gb|CY022469.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Kansas/3228/1987(H1... 2123 0.0
gb|CY022133.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/49/1977(H... 2123 0.0
gb|CY022117.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/21/1977(H... 2123 0.0
gb|CY022109.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/19/1977(H... 2123 0.0
dbj|AB434400.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Niigata/1/1977(H1N... 2107 0.0
gb|CY025205.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/37/1977(H... 2107 0.0
gb|CY022125.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/31/1977(H... 2107 0.0
gb|CY028171.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/2/1987(H1N1)) ... 2099 0.0
gb|EU735786.1| Influenza A virus (A/turkey/NC/19762/1988(H1N1... 2091 0.0
emb|X57494.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ehime/1/80(H1N1)) HA... 2091 0.0
gb|EF679201.1| Influenza A virus (A/turkey/Kansas/4880/1980 (... 2089 0.0
gb|GU052267.1| Influenza A virus (A/Swine/Indiana/1726/1988(H... 2083 0.0
gb|CY039925.1| Influenza A Virus (A/swine/Indiana/1726/1988(H... 2083 0.0
gb|FJ357104.1| Influenza A virus (A/turkey/NC/17026/1988(H1N1... 2083 0.0
gb|CY028788.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/1/1986(H1N1)) ... 2083 0.0
gb|CY022962.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/1/1987(H1N1)) ... 2083 0.0
gb|U53163.1|IAU53163 Influenza A virus (A/WI/4755/1994(H1N1))... 2083 0.0
gb|U53162.1|IAU53162 Influenza A virus (A/WI/4754/1994(H1N1))... 2083 0.0
dbj|AB434408.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ehime/1/1980(H1N2)... 2076 0.0
gb|CY035030.1| Influenza A virus (A/X-53A(Puerto Rico/8/1934-... 2076 0.0
gb|CY028435.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/7/1978(H1... 2076 0.0
gb|CY022970.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/31483/1988(H1N... 2076 0.0
gb|CY022333.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/17672/1988(H1N... 2076 0.0
gb|CY044365.1| Influenza A virus (A/New Jersey/11/1976(H1N1))... 2068 0.0
gb|CY022954.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/1/1977(H1N1)) ... 2068 0.0
gb|CY021957.1| Influenza A virus (A/New Jersey/1976(H1N1)) se... 2068 0.0
gb|M81707.1|FLASEQ Influenza A virus (A/Swine/Indiana/1726/19... 2068 0.0
gb|CY039991.1| Influenza A Virus (A/New Jersey/8/1976(H1N1)) ... 2064 0.0
gb|CY039917.1| Influenza A Virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/1915/1988... 2044 0.0
gb|CY024925.1| Influenza A virus (A/Ohio/3559/1988(H1N1)) seg... 2044 0.0
gb|CY022429.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Wisconsin/1915/1988... 2044 0.0
gb|CY039909.1| Influenza A Virus (A/Maryland/12/1991(H1N1)) s... 2036 0.0
dbj|AB434392.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Hokkaido/2/1981(H1... 2036 0.0
gb|EU139826.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Iowa/1973(H1N1)) he... 2036 0.0
gb|AF091306.1|AF091306 Influenza A virus (A/swine/Hokkaido/2/... 2036 0.0
gb|L24362.1|FLAMD1291A Influenza A virus (A/MD/12/1991(H1N1))... 2036 0.0
gb|CY036863.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/107/1977(... 2028 0.0
gb|CY032929.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/109/1977(... 2028 0.0
gb|CY026491.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/112/1977(... 2028 0.0
gb|CY026483.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/106/1977(... 2028 0.0
gb|CY026475.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Tennessee/105/1977(... 2028 0.0


and the NA from those isolates from Thailand match Eurasian swine

dbj|AB434330.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chachoengsao/NIAH5... 2795 0.0
dbj|AB434322.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH589/2... 2795 0.0
gb|EU296602.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chachoengsao/NIAH58... 2767 0.0
gb|EU296600.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH589/20... 2759 0.0
emb|AM920729.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Germany/Vi5698/95(... 2093 0.0
gb|CY038009.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL7/1992(H... 2077 0.0
gb|AF250366.2|AF250366 Influenza A virus (A/Swine/England/195... 2077 0.0
gb|CY038025.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Denmark/WVL9/1993(H... 2070 0.0
gb|CY038001.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Spain/WVL6/1991(H1N... 2070 0.0
gb|CY037908.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL10/1993(... 2046 0.0
dbj|AB434314.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH977/2... 2046 0.0
gb|CY037916.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL11/1994(... 2038 0.0
dbj|AB434290.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ratchaburi/NIAH148... 2030 0.0
dbj|AB434306.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH9469/... 2014 0.0
dbj|AB434298.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ratchaburi/NIAH550... 1990 0.0
gb|CY037946.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL15/1997(... 1966 0.0
gb|CY037938.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL14/1996(... 1951 0.0
gb|FJ805963.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/1/1998(H1N1... 1951 0.0
emb|AJ412691.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/74/85(H1N1... 1945 0.0
emb|AJ410881.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Cotes d'Armor/1488/9... 1939 0.0
gb|CY037985.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/France/WVL4/1985(H1... 1935 0.0
gb|EU296606.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/06CB2/2006... 1935 0.0
emb|AJ412689.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Finistere/3616/84(... 1931 0.0
gb|FJ688267.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Thailand/HF6/2005(H... 1927 0.0
gb|EU296604.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/05CB1/2005... 1927 0.0
gb|EF101756.1| Influenza A virus (A/Thailand/271/2005(H1N1)) ... 1927 0.0
emb|AJ412690.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/1/83(H1N1)... 1927 0.0
gb|CY037954.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL16/1998(... 1919 0.0
emb|AJ410876.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Italy/1424-4/95 (H1N... 1913 0.0
emb|AJ416626.1| Influenza A virus (A/turkey/France/87075/87(H... 1899 0.0
gb|CY037993.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/WVL5/1989(H... 1897 0.0
gb|GQ229290.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Hong Kong/8512/2001... 1895 0.0
emb|AM777826.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Cotes d'Armor/6029... 1893 0.0
emb|AJ410882.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Ille et Vilaine/1455... 1891 0.0
emb|AM777825.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Cotes d'Armor/9857... 1885 0.0
gb|CY037969.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/WVL2/1983(H... 1879 0.0
gb|CY038017.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/France/WVL8/1992(H1... 1871 0.0
gb|CY037977.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/France/WVL3/1984(H1... 1871 0.0
emb|AJ412692.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Lot/2979/82(H1N1))... 1871 0.0
gb|CY009894.1| Influenza A virus (A/Swine/Spain/50047/2003(H1... 1863 0.0
emb|AJ410880.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Italy/1509-6/97 (H1N... 1855 0.0
gb|GQ161125.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Haseluenne/IDT2617/... 1848 0.0
gb|GQ161121.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Haseluenne/IDT2617/... 1848 0.0
gb|EU045389.2| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/65296/2004(H1... 1840 0.0
gb|EU045388.2| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/53949/2004(H1... 1840 0.0
gb|CY025255.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/670/1987(H1N1... 1832 0.0
gb|CY022988.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/671/1987(H1N1... 1832 0.0
gb|CY010582.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Spain/53207/2004(H1... 1832 0.0
emb|AJ410875.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Cotes d'Armor/1121/0... 1816 0.0
gb|CY037962.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Scotland/WVL17/1999... 1802 0.0
gb|GQ161158.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Greven/IDT2889/2004... 1800 0.0
gb|GQ338413.1| Influenza A virus (A/Tennessee/06/2009(H1N1)) ... 1784 0.0
gb|EU045393.2| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/247578/2004(H... 1784 0.0
gb|CY010574.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Spain/51915/2003(H1... 1784 0.0

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:04 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:42 am
Posts: 43726
Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
j6pack123 wrote:

Dr. Adrian Gibbs interview by Steve Martin @ 27:36 ~ 29:10 wrote:
Steve Martin: ... It takes quite a stretch of probability for the virus to have been created in the way that most of the main stream media, at least in this country, is telling us that it was created, that is by various pigs from various continents getting together at the same time.
Dr. Adrian Gibbs: Yup. That's it. You absolutely hit on the crucial issue. That is, when we first saw (you know colleagues with like mind as myself) the evidence. The evidence is gene sequences. And you take their gene sequences and you compare them with other ones in the computer. You draw up their relationships in a tree. It looks to us a very strange looking tree. The influenza virus has 8 genes. So in essence, you can look at the genealogy of influenza eight times. And what has been noticed and published before by people was that this virus has six of its genes from a North American virus and two of its genes from a virus in Eurasia. Now, that in itself is unusual. You know it is unusual in that the Eurasian virus has never been found in North America, because you have very good and strict quarantine regulations and vice versa. The one in North America had never been found in Europe. And yet here, this virus had apparently managed to break the barrier and get through.


It is unclear what media Steve Martin has been reading, but no one thinks that pigs had to get together to create the pandemic H1N1 which is a swine triple reassortant with 1 human (PB2), two avian (PB2 and PB1) and five swine flu genes (of which two, NA and MP, are Eurasian and the other three are North American).

The human PB1 happened in 1993 when a human H3N2 (from a human), infected a classical H1N1 swine in a swine. The swine virus picked up a human H3, a human N2, and a human PB1 and the PB1 in pandmeic H1N1 is the same human PB1 (and traces back to 1993). Later in the 1990's an avian virus infected swine and then the two avian genes were picked up to create a triple reassortant.

All of this happened in the 1990's and was documented in the 1990's. There was no requirement of swine getting together. Both humans and birds get around and have contact with swine, which is how a swine flu meets a human flu or a swine flu meets an avian flu.

Thus, the opening premise is demonstrably false, which is why the debate really has no scientific basis.

The mixture of Eurasian and North American swine genes is also not unique, as seen in the data I upload. H1N1 swine in Thailand in 2005 have a North American HA and a Eurasian NA, so nothing posted on this thread thus far falls into the "debatable" category. The statements supporting anything other a natural evolution have already been demostrated as false, and have been false since 2005.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:25 pm 
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Here is a longer list (top 100) of matches with the NA from the 2005 H1N1 swine in Thailand. After matches with swine from Asia and Europe comes matches with human pandemic H1N1, once again showing that the database for this swine NA is very small:

dbj|AB434330.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chachoengsao/NIAH5... 2795 0.0
dbj|AB434322.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH589/2... 2795 0.0
gb|EU296602.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chachoengsao/NIAH58... 2767 0.0
gb|EU296600.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH589/20... 2759 0.0
emb|AM920729.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Germany/Vi5698/95(... 2093 0.0
gb|CY038009.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL7/1992(H... 2077 0.0
gb|AF250366.2|AF250366 Influenza A virus (A/Swine/England/195... 2077 0.0
gb|CY038025.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Denmark/WVL9/1993(H... 2070 0.0
gb|CY038001.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Spain/WVL6/1991(H1N... 2070 0.0
gb|CY037908.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL10/1993(... 2046 0.0
dbj|AB434314.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH977/2... 2046 0.0
gb|CY037916.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL11/1994(... 2038 0.0
dbj|AB434290.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ratchaburi/NIAH148... 2030 0.0
dbj|AB434306.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/NIAH9469/... 2014 0.0
dbj|AB434298.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Ratchaburi/NIAH550... 1990 0.0
gb|CY037946.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL15/1997(... 1966 0.0
gb|CY037938.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL14/1996(... 1951 0.0
gb|FJ805963.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/1/1998(H1N1... 1951 0.0
emb|AJ412691.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/74/85(H1N1... 1945 0.0
emb|AJ410881.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Cotes d'Armor/1488/9... 1939 0.0
gb|CY037985.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/France/WVL4/1985(H1... 1935 0.0
gb|EU296606.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/06CB2/2006... 1935 0.0
emb|AJ412689.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Finistere/3616/84(... 1931 0.0
gb|FJ688267.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Thailand/HF6/2005(H... 1927 0.0
gb|EU296604.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Chonburi/05CB1/2005... 1927 0.0
gb|EF101756.1| Influenza A virus (A/Thailand/271/2005(H1N1)) ... 1927 0.0
emb|AJ412690.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/1/83(H1N1)... 1927 0.0
gb|CY037954.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/England/WVL16/1998(... 1919 0.0
emb|AJ410876.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Italy/1424-4/95 (H1N... 1913 0.0
emb|AJ416626.1| Influenza A virus (A/turkey/France/87075/87(H... 1899 0.0
gb|CY037993.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/WVL5/1989(H... 1897 0.0
gb|GQ229290.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Hong Kong/8512/2001... 1895 0.0
emb|AM777826.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Cotes d'Armor/6029... 1893 0.0
emb|AJ410882.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Ille et Vilaine/1455... 1891 0.0
emb|AM777825.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Cotes d'Armor/9857... 1885 0.0
gb|CY037969.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Belgium/WVL2/1983(H... 1879 0.0
gb|CY038017.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/France/WVL8/1992(H1... 1871 0.0
gb|CY037977.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/France/WVL3/1984(H1... 1871 0.0
emb|AJ412692.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Lot/2979/82(H1N1))... 1871 0.0
gb|CY009894.1| Influenza A virus (A/Swine/Spain/50047/2003(H1... 1863 0.0
emb|AJ410880.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Italy/1509-6/97 (H1N... 1855 0.0
gb|GQ161125.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Haseluenne/IDT2617/... 1848 0.0
gb|GQ161121.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Haseluenne/IDT2617/... 1848 0.0
gb|EU045389.2| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/65296/2004(H1... 1840 0.0
gb|EU045388.2| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/53949/2004(H1... 1840 0.0
gb|CY025255.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/670/1987(H1N1... 1832 0.0
gb|CY022988.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/671/1987(H1N1... 1832 0.0
gb|CY010582.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Spain/53207/2004(H1... 1832 0.0
emb|AJ410875.1| Influenza A virus (swine/Cotes d'Armor/1121/0... 1816 0.0
gb|CY037962.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Scotland/WVL17/1999... 1802 0.0
gb|GQ161158.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Greven/IDT2889/2004... 1800 0.0
gb|GQ338413.1| Influenza A virus (A/Tennessee/06/2009(H1N1)) ... 1784 0.0
gb|EU045393.2| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/247578/2004(H... 1784 0.0
gb|CY010574.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Spain/51915/2003(H1... 1784 0.0
gb|GU189651.1| Influenza A virus (A/Zhejiang/DTID-ZJU03/2009(... 1776 0.0
gb|CY049941.1| Influenza A virus (A/Santo Domingo/WR1056T/200... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ183627.1| Influenza A virus (A/Beijing/02/2009(H1N1)) se... 1776 0.0
gb|GU123901.1| Influenza A virus (A/Italy/134/2009(H1N1)) seg... 1776 0.0
gb|GU112092.1| Influenza A virus (A/Zhejiang/DTID-ZJU02/2009(... 1776 0.0
gb|GU014795.1| Influenza A virus (A/Kanagawa/140/2009(H1N1)) ... 1776 0.0
gb|CY046285.1| Influenza A virus (A/Wisconsin/629-D02473/2009... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ894933.1| Influenza A virus (A/North Carolina/06/2009(H1... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ894923.1| Influenza A virus (A/Washington/37/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ894823.1| Influenza A virus (A/Oklahoma/02/2009(H1N1)) s... 1776 0.0
gb|CY045948.1| Influenza A virus (A/Toronto/C2781/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
gb|CY045940.1| Influenza A virus (A/Toronto/C0270/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
gb|CY045087.1| Influenza A virus (A/New York/3574/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
dbj|AB514229.1| Influenza A virus (A/Saitama/55/2009(H1N1)) N... 1776 0.0
gb|CY043221.1| Influenza A virus (A/New York/3455/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
gb|CY043165.1| Influenza A virus (A/New York/3454/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ411899.1| Influenza A virus (A/Toronto/T5308/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
gb|CY043112.1| Influenza A virus (A/Santo Domingo/568T/2009(H... 1776 0.0
gb|CY043104.1| Influenza A virus (A/Santo Domingo/565T/2009(H... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ402236.1| Influenza A virus (A/Canada-SK/RV1767/2009(H1N... 1776 0.0
gb|CY041985.1| Influenza A virus (A/Santo Domingo/0573N/2009(... 1776 0.0
gb|CY041752.1| Influenza A virus (A/New York/3323/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ323542.1| Influenza A virus (A/Texas/07/2009(H1N1)) segm... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ323488.1| Influenza A virus (A/Arizona/09/2009(H1N1)) se... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ323478.1| Influenza A virus (A/Kansas/03/2009(H1N1)) seg... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ232025.1| Influenza A virus (A/Illinois/01/2009(H1N1)) s... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ232095.1| Influenza A virus (A/Beijing/4/2009(H1N1)) seg... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ225375.1| Influenza A virus (A/Beijing/01/2009(H1N1)) se... 1776 0.0
gb|CY040736.2| Influenza A virus (A/New York/3240/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ183619.1| Influenza A virus (A/Beijing/01/2009(H1N1)) se... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ168670.1| Influenza A virus (A/Texas/09/2009(H1N1)) segm... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ168643.1| Influenza A virus (A/Kansas/03/2009(H1N1)) seg... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ162181.1| Influenza A virus (A/Mexico/4176/2009(H1N1)) s... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ160571.1| Influenza A virus (A/Texas/22/2009(H1N1)) segm... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ160529.1| Influenza A virus (A/Tennessee/05/2009(H1N1)) ... 1776 0.0
gb|CY039895.1| Influenza A Virus (A/New York/1669/2009(H1N1))... 1776 0.0
gb|GQ117058.1| Influenza A virus (A/Kansas/02/2009(H1N1)) seg... 1776 0.0
gb|CY037931.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/France/WVL13/1995(H... 1776 0.0
gb|EU037015.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Italy/66945/2006(H3... 1776 0.0
emb|AM777827.1| Influenza A virus (A/swine/Cotes d'Armor/0136... 1774 0.0
gb|CY053256.1| Influenza A virus (A/Brownsville/36H/2009(H1N1... 1768 0.0
gb|CY052124.1| Influenza A virus (A/New York/3969/2009(H1N1))... 1768 0.0
gb|CY053311.1| Influenza A virus (A/Brownsville/37OS/2009(H1N... 1768 0.0
gb|CY053263.1| Influenza A virus (A/Brownsville/37H/2009(H1N1... 1768 0.0
gb|CY053248.1| Influenza A virus (A/Brownsville/35H/2009(H1N1... 1768 0.0
gb|CY053240.1| Influenza A virus (A/Brownsville/35OS/2009(H1N... 1768 0.0

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:21 pm 
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The messages posted on this thread deal with the composition of the pandemic strain, and teh combination is NOT unusual. The North American HA sequence has been found in a series of H1N1 swine sioalts from pigs in Thailand in 2005. Thus, as acknoweledged by teh CDC last spring, the finding of HA from North America, and NA from Eurasia has been seen previously (sevral times in Thailand in 2005) once again signaling natural evolution.

As has been seen MANY times now, the pandmeic H1N1 matches swine, but can readily jump to MANY species, inclduing humans, turkeys, ferrests, domestic cats, domestic dogs, ad wild cats, It is likely that the species list is MUCH larger so movement of the virus from one continent to another is rather trivial and does NOT require the movement of any pigs.

The human PB1 in swine H1n1 came from a human infected with human flu, and the two avian genes came from a bird infected with bird flu. This constellation of plymerase genes (human PB1 and avian PB2 and PA) has been seen in swine with a human H3N2, a 2003 human H1N1, a 2007 human H1N1, and a 2008 human H1N1 as well as swine H1N1 (both from North America, or HA from North America and NA from Eurasia).

All of these are natural events which have been described previously many times. None of these reasortants have been linked to lab accidents or manipulation.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:06 pm 
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Sorry if it's off topic, but oddly enough, yesterday I was reading an abstract from a study that was published in 2006, that showed Influenza A RNA stored in Siberian Lake Ice.

Available here:

http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/full/80/ ... type=HWCIT

I only mention it, as it seems to be a good explanation of how various influenza strains "meet and greet" with-out specific vectors coming into contact. It also satisfied my curiosity for how these strains can lay dormant and remain under the radar for long periods of time before re-emerging. Even more interesting is the notion that there may be a correlation between the release of pathogens from ice during periods of warming and a decline during cooler periods.

Perhaps this study has since been refuted or the ideas are no longer relevant, but it seems a little more plausible and scientific than those proposed on some of the conspiracy sites.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:15 pm 
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spentitall wrote:
Sorry if it's off topic, but oddly enough, yesterday I was reading an abstract from a study that was published in 2006, that showed Influenza A RNA stored in Siberian Lake Ice.

Available here:

http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/full/80/ ... type=HWCIT

I only mention it, as it seems to be a good explanation of how various influenza strains "meet and greet" with-out specific vectors coming into contact. It also satisfied my curiosity for how these strains can lay dormant and remain under the radar for long periods of time before re-emerging. Even more interesting is the notion that there may be a correlation between the release of pathogens from ice during periods of warming and a decline during cooler periods.

Perhaps this study has since been refuted or the ideas are no longer relevant, but it seems a little more plausible and scientific than those proposed on some of the conspiracy sites.

Actic ice isn't much different than the conspiracy sites. The sequences were called avian in the paper, but they were human sequences from the 1930's, so it is unclear if or why those sequences were in artic ice (or lab contaminants).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Oh great, so I am still left wondering....Thanks for the info!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:50 pm 
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spentitall wrote:
Oh great, so I am still left wondering....Thanks for the info!

The conspiracy sites are not even in the game. They are populated by non-scientists who have no idea what they are talking about who take a news item and twist it around to create a conspiracy. They have ZERO scientific foundation, so they start with nonsense about pigs meeting pigs, which is pure wackdoodle.

The story really isn't that complicated or unusual. Swine have been called a "mixing vessel" for years, because swine, avian, and human flu viruses are all supported. Up until 1993 swine flu was H1N1 related to the classical swine viruses isolated in the 1930's. In 1993 a pig was infected with a seasonal flu (from a contact person infected with H3N2). The H3N2 and classical swine H1N1 were in the same pig, and the virus that emerged had three human gene (H, N, PB1) and was an H3N2 (because of human H3 and human N2). Those viruses are still circulating in pigs (none of tehse combinations, other than pandmeic H1N1 are circulating in humans). However, the H3N2 have been swapped out for swine H1N1, and human seasonal H1N1 (from 2003, 2007, or 2008). Thus, many different swine virus sero-types/HN combinations have human PB1 (from 1993 H3N2), but with many combinations of H and N. In the 1990's the swine with human PB1 was infected with avian virus that contributed two additional polymerase genes (PB2 and PA) and this combination of polymerase genes (human PB1 with avian PA and PB2) work well together, so those three genes are in many swine viruses.

When the pandemic H1N1 was isoalted, some virologists who work with human influenza said the combination of North American swine H1 and Eurasian swine N1 was unique, and the reassortment event that created that combination led to the pandemic. However, those who work with swine influenza noted that the combination of North American H1 with Eurasian N1 was NOT new and the combination had been reported in swine H1N1 in Thailand dating back to 2005. That knocked out a proximal reassortment event linked to North American H1 and Eurasian N1 and also knocked out a recent lab experiment hypothesis bases on the H and N combination being unnatural.

Dr Gibbs' comments on a lab origin was grabbed by these conspiracy sites, but not by the scientific community, becasue those who work with swine influenza know that the database isn't very good (leading to gaps with MANY swine influenza isolates including pandemic H1N1) and Dr Gibbs just puts this out as a POSSIBILITY, which really is solely based on a poor swine database (the only swine isolate from Mexico is the one deposited last month).

Thus, the conspiracy sites are as lost as ever, and Dr Gibbs is linked to a poor swine data base and the associated gaps.

The natural evolution of swine/pandemic H1N1 is well characterized and does NOT require any lab escapes.

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Last edited by niman on Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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