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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:18 am 
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LOL. Life/virus imitating movies/TV. Or: evolving reality gives more ammo to kernels of whackadoodler claims. A V plot going realtime.

I still do not quite understand this beyond all nagging doubts so if anybody wants to very carefully baby-step answer my questions please do.

Researched carefully before deciding on vaccination -- something I never thought I'd do. Intuitively it still feels like the best course but I want a reality check via science.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:31 am 
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Commentary

http://www.recombinomics.com/News/11270 ... e_WHO.html

_________________
www.twitter.com/hniman


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:36 am 
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Cascadians wrote:
Would it be accurate to say that for an individual with some wild resistance this is less a problem than the 'naive' populess? Or does it mean the virus will become so dominant with D225G that "resistance is futile?"

Forgive my ignorance; I'm trying to understand if prior infection / vaccination is to that exposed individual's advantage or detriment, and why.

It sounds like prior infection/vaccination is a slight individual advantage but evolutionarily puts pressure on H1N1 to select the D225G version for more virulent attack and "fresh meat for dinner." Right or wrong?

Niman wrote:
This would fall into the EXTREMELY bad news category. It means that not only does D225G drive the H1N1 to the lungs, but it allows the virus to evade the natural immune response / vaccine.

Well, my reply probably isn't going to please vaccine supporters, but I haven't really liked THIS vaccine for several reasons. To me - from the beginning, it's been evident that this thing would change, and away from the vaccine, at some point. Now it appears that this has happened + it looks like one of the side effects of the vaccination campaign is that it is going to have the impact of strengthening the mutations position on the power ladder so to speak.

Since I am finally making a public opinion comment on the CURRENT vaccine, I should detail my reasoning...

1) They keep saying it is safe, but they rushed it. Even the manufacturers own statements are clear that in many cases thy only tracked a day or two of response issues. Long term affects still unknown. And while I admit wholeheartedly that the percentages are low - there ARE substantial adverse reactions being reported, and this includes death. And yet the "original H1N1" was a mild disease for the vast majority of people. And since we now know that D225G has been around in limited fashion - for all we know, some of these previous severe cases could have been caused by it. For all we know there have been cases of vaccinated people who actually ended up catching the "new H1N1" and died / got severely ill - and they just haven't reported it. And at this point, if you think that the WHO/CDC might have that info and simply not released it - you need to have your head examined. My summary on this point is that the risk/reward ratio was too low to take the vaccine given it is targeted to a low lethality strain. I'm also in the non-adjuvant U.S.A., but given the low risk/reward ratio, I would be even more inclined to avoid vaccine with adjuvant, because I DO have concern with it, and there ARE studies that still have big unresolved questions regarding some adjuvants. I also do NOT like Thimerasol, which ALL bulk vaccines currently contain. Again, the risk/reward ratio doesn't justify taking the vaccine IN MY OPINION given it targets a "milder strain".
2) Vaccine doesn't convey as solid immunity as actually getting the virus and beating it through full development of antibodies. This can result in longer waves, repeat waves.
3) This "One Course" vaccine they've implemented for young children is not conveying full immunity, and is allowing for the virus to reinfect - thus creating super spreader scenarios in which low symptom cases walk freely about society. (I realize that officially they have admitted that kids under 9 need 2 doses - but given we don't have enough vaccine of ever hoping to actually get most of them their second dose - it is just political double talk and idiocy)
4) And this continues to remain the BIG ISSUE for me..... Even if this strain change hadn't happened, and even if it was an absolute 100% perfect match, we still have no real hope of currently vaccinating more than 10% of the world population, and YET they've thrown all their eggs into this basket, ignoring wider data collection and broader based solutions thinking. So this continues to be my biggest objection - that all of this talk about vaccine intentionally ignores 90+% of the world population.

I've seen a story about a new technology that can reproduce natural antibodies. I continue to think that this is going to be the way out for many.... dependent upon the productions levels & delivery method (introduction into a vaccine? A plasma transfusion? What) But again I see NO discussion going on in regards to this. I see NO data being collected on Vitamin D, Statin Useage, AnitOxidant/Resveratol or anti-Inflammatories as possible mitigators to the severity of disease. NOTHING! Just a blind, damned stubborn focus on vaccines that the huge, vast majority of the world population has no hope of ever receiving. And of course, now, the vaccine we do have probably won't even cover the new changes we are seeing, and is actually going to HELP them become predominant.

NOTE: I want to point out that I am NOT anti-vaccine. For instance, I recently got my PneumoVax vaccine. I am just anti THIS vaccine.


Last edited by The Mountains Voice on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:39 am 
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Your commentaries are very helpful.

For a bottom line dummie understanding, I think I need a remedial virology course. Will look for something online. Maybe iTunes U has one. Last night went over this thread with my partner who is well educated, current and frontline + managerial/admin high level healthcare and she doesn't understand it either.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:48 am 
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TMV, thanks. I still want to know exactly the mechanism for infection now with D225G for a previously H1N1 exposed / vaccinated individual. Is that individual at more or less risk from succumbing now to lung zzzzzlorp than an unexposed/unvaccinated person?

I view vaccination as one iffy tool in the belt and have a mini-pharm of herbals and tinctures to halt virus replication. But that's the result of lots of research and experimentation and 99% of the world populess isn't going to care enough to figure this out.

Not going to get each new mutation targeted vaccine. It'll never end. Just wanted baseline resistance; re-infection was bothering me. And Dr Niman posted that H1N1 may become the basis for 'seasonal flu' for years to come.

I agree completely that vaccination isn't the answer.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:09 am 
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:hello: Thank you for being honest with all of us, Dr.Niman!

My question is, if D225G was already found and isolated back in the spring~ WHY did the WHO and CDC NOT include this in the instructions for vaccine production??

I am NOT getting that at all. :scratch:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:04 am
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I used to work in a mental health unit and one of my old colleagues phoned me today. I asked her if she had been vaccinated and whether it was compulsory since the employer is the local health trust. She said vaccination was voluntary and only 2 out of about 20 staff had been vaccinated. Plus her own doctor had advised against it as she felt it was not sufficiently tested.. However her husband, who has heart problems, has been vaccinated.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:14 am 
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Cascadians wrote:
TMV, thanks. I still want to know exactly the mechanism for infection now with D225G for a previously H1N1 exposed / vaccinated individual. Is that individual at more or less risk from succumbing now to lung zzzzzlorp than an unexposed/unvaccinated person?
Yes - I'd like to hear more on this also. In laymans speak that I can understand. Backup data available for qualified people to review is welcome as well. My family has had this run through twice since Spring. So the whole "new strain" severity issue regarding people who've developed "original strain" immunity via natural or vaccinated methods is of interest.

I view vaccination as one iffy tool in the belt and have a mini-pharm of herbals and tinctures to halt virus replication. But that's the result of lots of research and experimentation and 99% of the world populess isn't going to care enough to figure this out.
And this is a huge source of "pissed off" for me. CDC/WHO needs to be doing SOMETHING, taking some sort of lead in data collection, and making reccomendations. But they have their head up their a$$, and seem to think that anything they say might be construed as an excuse not to take the vaccine.

Not going to get each new mutation targeted vaccine. It'll never end. Just wanted baseline resistance; re-infection was bothering me. And Dr Niman posted that H1N1 may become the basis for 'seasonal flu' for years to come.
Exactly. We need an approach that isn't reactive to the virus, but is more proactive wiht a long term view. And I think thats the problem with this vaccine focus - and I am not saying this as fact, but it sure could be easily interpretted that their current approach is intentionally designed to create a long term repeat customer base.

I agree completely that vaccination isn't the answer.
I'm not saying it's not Part of the answer - but it sure as hell isn't the Best answer, nor the Only answer.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:24 am 
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Faithful wrote:
:hello: Thank you for being honest with all of us, Dr.Niman!

My question is, if D225G was already found and isolated back in the spring~ WHY did the WHO and CDC NOT include this in the instructions for vaccine production??

I am NOT getting that at all. :scratch:


Ditto here for Dr. Niman and my question exactly!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:31 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:32 am
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Please stop repeating the usual vaccine conspiracy theories, or move to conspiracy theories.This could be a nice scientific forum without whackadoodling, panicking on unproved predictions and seeing conspiracies in everything...

The problem with flu vaccines was always a mutating virus. Thats why they have to design a new vaccine each year. They haven't designed a vaccine for D225G because it was not the dominant strain back then. And as Dr Niman has correctly written: 'Earlier studies on vaccine target clones, which indicated D225G produce no difference in titer....' so it seemed the vaccine is working anyway.


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