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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:07 pm 
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Quote:
or even suggesting that Everyone should check their levels, or take some supplementation is giving false hope.

If you are suggesting everyone do this, you are giving medical advice without a license. Patients should make the decision whether to test their vitamin D levels and whether to supplement with vitamin D in consultation with their personal physician, not on the authority of a nameless non-doctor on the internet. I can safely say that it would be inappropriate medical advice to suggest everyone check their vitamin D level AND everyone supplement with vitamin D.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:36 pm 
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Below is the beginning of an excellent paper... Really makes one think.

Quote:
The antibiotic vitamin: deficiency in vitamin D may predispose people to infection
Science News, Nov 11, 2006
by Janet Raloff


In April 2005, a virulent strain of influenza hit a maximum-security forensic psychiatric hospital for men that's midway between San Francisco and Los Angeles. John J. Cannell, a psychiatrist there, observed with increasing curiosity as one infected ward after another was quarantined to limit the outbreak Although 10 percent of the facility's 1,200 patients ultimately developed the flu's fever and debilitating muscle aches, none did in the ward that he supervised.

"First, the ward below mine was quarantined, then the wards on my right, left, and across the hall," Cannell recalls. However, although the 32 men on his ward at Atascadero (Calif.) State Hospital had mingled with patients from infected wards before their quarantine, none developed the illness.

Cannell's ward was the only heavily exposed ward left unaffected. Was it by mere chance, Cannell wondered, that his patients dodged the sickness?

A few months later, Cannell ran across a possible answer in the scientific literature. In the July 2005 FASEB Journal, Adrian F. Gombart of the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) and his colleagues reported that vitamin D boosts production in white blood cells of one of the antimicrobial compounds that defends the body against germs.

Immediately, Cannell says, the proverbial lightbulb went on in his head: Maybe the high doses of vitamin D that he had been prescribing to virtually all the men on his ward had boosted their natural arsenal of the antimicrobial, called cathelicidin, and protected them from flu. Cannell had been administering the vitamin D because his patients, like many other people in the industrial world, had shown a deficiency:

Paper, which is a LONG 5 pages can be found at the following webpage -
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... n16865477/


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:03 am 
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mkey, I respect and look forward to your posts. I'm a vitamin D fan, but also a vaccine fan. I'm doing both!

But I'm not following, when you said it was inappropriate to suggest that everyone be tested for vitamin d deficiency. How can testing for deficiency be a bad idea?

I was tested in September and considered "normal" (I don't have the value with me, but it was in the low 30,000's). From my reading I don't agree that this is a good level, and am working on increasing it. I'm aiming for 50,000. I will request a re-test in January to see where I am.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:58 am 
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Quote:
Maybe the high doses of vitamin D that he had been prescribing to virtually all the men on his ward had boosted their natural arsenal of the antimicrobial, called cathelicidin, and protected them from flu. Cannell had been administering the vitamin D because his patients, like many other people in the industrial world, had shown a deficiency

Here's another quote from that article:
Quote:
On the basis of more than 100 articles that he collected, Cannell and seven other researchers now propose that vitamin D deficiency may underlie a vulnerability to infections by the microbes that cathelicidin targets. These include bacteria, viruses, and fungi, the group notes in a report available online for an upcoming Epidemiology and Infection.

and another
Quote:
"We're now planning to do a clinical trial and treat African Americans who are deficient with vitamin D to correct their serum levels [of the prehormone] and see if this will change their antimicrobial response," Modlin says.

and another...
Quote:
Cannell's group cites a 1997 study showing that the rate of pneumonia in Ethiopian children with rickets, and therefore a likely vitamin D deficiency, was 13 times as high as in children without that disease.

Again, you present a paper that basically argues over and over that correcting a vitamin D deficiency helps prevent infection. Yeah, of course it does. Again, that's not disputed. However, you personally go way beyond this, TMV, to make statements that even those without such a deficiency should be taking vitamin D. Again, where's the evidence for that? Not in this paper.

Quote:
Scientists have already planned a handful of clinical trials to evaluate the antimicrobial benefits of vitamin D supplementation.

...Stahle is now beginning a trial of people with skin infections...

...Gallo is also planning a new trial. His group will compare the effectiveness of supplemental vitamin D in elevating cathelicidin concentrations when administered as oral supplements or as a skin treatment...

Interesting that this article directly contradicts a statement you made earlier. You've previously claimed that vitamin D research was being ignored, though you provided no evidence in support of the claim. Clearly, vitamin D's role in infection is NOT being ignored by researchers, as the above quotes confirm.

Quote:
Zasloff argues that if studies support the hypothesis, "we can imagine one day treating infections not by giving somebody a drug, but by giving them safe and simple substances--like a vitamin."

Hopefully, the hypothesis will be supported by the clinical studies underway. However, Zasloff clearly understands that those studies need to be conducted BEFORE making sweeping recommendations about using vitamin D.

Quote:
"There are many microbes out there that rarely-to-never cause disease in immunocompetent individuals. It's not because the microbes don't choose to infect us," he[Gallo] notes. "It's because the body's immune defense against the microbes is sufficient to control their proliferation.

It's possible, he says, that a shortfall in vitamin D might seriously compromise that defense."

I'm totally with Gallo on this. It seems very likely it's true that deficient patients are more at risk of infection. It does not, however, follow that supplementation with extra vitamin D in an immunocompetent person without a vitamin D deficiency will be of benefit. That's where the evidence is lacking.

Quote:
Until such lab animals are available, vitamin D's impact--even on flu risk--"should be explored in clinical trials," Zasloff says, because the treatment poses little risk to people.

Again, I agree with this. We should pursue clinical trials to explore to what degree vitamin D supplementation in deficient patients and normal, non-deficient patients helps with regard to preventing or ameliorating flu. We should explore what forms of vitamin D are effective. We should delineate dose-response curves and patients who especially benefit. However, doing this research is definitely not the same as making blanket recommendations that everyone should be taking OTC vitamin D supplements. Those kinds of recommendations should not be made until after these research findings are in.

Lynn writes:
Quote:
I'm a vitamin D fan, but also a vaccine fan. I'm doing both!

Me too!

Quote:
But I'm not following, when you said it was inappropriate to suggest that everyone be tested for vitamin d deficiency. How can testing for deficiency be a bad idea?

I'm not saying that testing is necessarily bad, Lynn, just that it isn't always appropriate. Take for instance older women with osteoporosis. Do we need to test them, or can we start vitamin D supplementation without a vitamin D level, knowing that most such patients are deficient? Some testing is unnecessary and a waste of money for the patient. Other times, the patient will not be treated with vitamin D regardless of what their test shows, because vitamin D supplementation might be contraindicated for other medical reasons (for instance in those who become hypercalcemic with administration of vitamin D). Hope that clarifies.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:09 am 
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I have a question: Since most studies show that Vitamin D deficiency is a bad thing, and many studies show that Vitamin D deficiency is widely prevalent, can someone tell me how I would go about finding out if I was deficient?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:56 am 
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The Mountains Voice wrote:
I have a question: Since most studies show that Vitamin D deficiency is a bad thing, and many studies show that Vitamin D deficiency is widely prevalent, can someone tell me how I would go about finding out if I was deficient?

One can find out whether one is Vitamin D deficient by requesting a blood test on Vitamin D 25-Hydroxy. The reference range is about 20 ~ 100 ng/mL (nanogram per mililiter), with levels < 20 ng/mL indicative of Vitamin D deficiency, while levels between 20 ng/mL and 30 ng/mL suggest insufficiency. Optimal levels are > 30 ng/mL and < 100 ng/mL. Some physician recommends the middle of the range as a target : 50 ng/mL.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:15 am 
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Posts: 250
TIME OUT Y'ALL !!

Everyone chill out and relax....please. The discussion has clearly been compromised by emotion. The human mind shuts down and becomes polarized in the advent of perceived attacks: no matter what side you are on and what you may believe is true. I took a day off to see how things would develop and boy have they developed. Here’s what I see going on right now.

All truth passes through three stages...

First, it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed,
Third, it is accepted as self evident.


We are clearly in between stages one and two right now and that is the natural cycle of debate so don't get offended MKey or Mountain. It is what HAS to happen to get to a clearer understanding of the issue.

I want to correct EVERYBODY here to state that Vitamin D is NOT really a vitamin. It acts like more like a steroid-hormone. It acts upon and expresses around 2000 or our 32000 genes. A ridiculously HUGE amount of our overall genome if this indeed was just a simple and singular vitamin. With that said, many of those 2000 are also directly related to the immune system. Of course it is not a magic pill, it is not a fad vitamin but the issue is NOT going to go away. It will eventually become self evident and people such as myself, Mountain and the vast amount of emerging data simply becomes impossible to ignore. So I won't get my goat up over this folks, this is the natural cycle of events and time will be our greatest asset as understanding of this topic unfolds.

Only today we are seeing Oncologists in America for the first time, begin to understand its role and begin advocating its use in Cancer therapy. The tide is turning daily.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/doctors-start-to-include-vitamin-d-in-fight-against-cancer/article1352956/

Our bodies have clearly evolved to both need and require Vitamin D. It is crucial to health seeing as it specifically expresses immune function genes and is produced naturally in the skin in response to UVB exposure. If scientists truly believe in evolution or no matter what you might believe in terms of how humans made it thus far (and I guess the whole debate might actually center around BELIEF in light of how emotional the thread has become) you BOTH simply cannot deny the obvious fact that humans were either DESIGNED or EVOLVED to be in natural sunlight. This is the "elephant in the living room" so to speak. It will and is increasingly becoming self-evident. We don't, for example, produce Vitamin C and must obtain it from external sources, we get many of our vital micro and macro nutrients from the food we eat BUT vitamin D is derived from exposure of our skin to the sun. It once struck me as odd as to why the ONLY Vitamin absent for optimal human health in Breastmilk is actually Vitamin D but now it makes perfect sense, your best source is from mother nature herself because it is NOT a vitamin and clearly MUCH more than that. I'm sure BOTH sides of whatever fence you THINK you are standing knows that "Breast is Best" (assuming the mother is actually healthy and well nourished herself of course). God or evolution has it all figured out folks if we care to listen to such obvious signals….SHOCKER EH?

As I see it, mandatory Vitamin D testing for the chronically ill (cancer etc) will undoubtedly become standard practice in the US within the year, perhaps two as it has just now begun now in Canada. It will become negligent not to do so. We are moving towards stage three in terms of understanding folks and it is clearly unstoppable.

_________________
I post my opinions, they may or may not differ from accepted officialdom, but they ARE protected under free speech. Please consult your doctor (or your own mind) should you choose to take this information further.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:17 pm
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j6pack123 wrote:
The Mountains Voice wrote:
I have a question: Since most studies show that Vitamin D deficiency is a bad thing, and many studies show that Vitamin D deficiency is widely prevalent, can someone tell me how I would go about finding out if I was deficient?

One can find out whether one is Vitamin D deficient by requesting a blood test on Vitamin D 25-Hydroxy. The reference range is about 20 ~ 100 ng/mL (nanogram per mililiter), with levels < 20 ng/mL indicative of Vitamin D deficiency, while levels between 20 ng/mL and 30 ng/mL suggest insufficiency. Optimal levels are > 30 ng/mL and < 100 ng/mL. Some physician recommends the middle of the range as a target : 50 ng/mL.

Thank you J6P,
It should be noted that these tests can be requested from your physician. Often they are covered by your insurance. It is also importat to note that that we aren't dealing with some scary prescription medication here. Vitamin D supplements are OTC supplements sold in high concentrations even through Wal-mart, or your local grocer.

And yet the bulk of the evidence (posted so far in the entirety of this thread - which is only a fraction of the evidence) shows that proper Vitamin D levels can be very important to your health, and are instrumental in fighting influenza.

Another way to have your levels tested is simply a mail order kit. The organization, http://www.grassrootshealth.net, is A Consortium of Scientists, Institutions and Individuals Committed to Solving the Worldwide Vitamin D Deficiency Epidemic.

At the following webpage, you can apply to have your Serum Levels tested PLUS you can be part of the solution by filling out forms and being part of a 5 year study.


http://www.grassrootshealth.net/daction

Here is a snippet from that page:

Quote:
The Daction project is an international public health project to solve the vitamin D deficiency epidemic.

The major components of the project are

Education:
Diagnosis & Treatment of Vitamin D Deficiency seminars. Contact us to sponsor seminars in your community.

Tours to educate the public and health care personnel in brief (1-2 hour) presentations about the epidemic and recommended actions.

Exhibits at major medical conferences.

Testing of vitamin D levels
GrassrootsHealth is sponsoring the use of blood spot test kits (laboratory analysis done by ZRT Labs) for a $40.00 fee to each individual. The tests are to be done twice a year by each individual along with the submission of some basic health data. The kits are not available as a ‘stand alone’ without health data.

A 5 year study will be done with the data
accumulated from the individuals tested to evaluate the results of the program in disease prevention and to help create a long term plan for public health.

Medical institutions and groups are encouraged to contact Carole Baggerly, Director, carole@grassrootshealth.org.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:00 pm 
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GAGuidestone79 wrote:
I took a day off to see how things would develop and boy have they developed..

LOL - I think you did this on purpose! I come down with the Flu, and you pick THAT day to go AWOL on me! haha

Glad to hav to you back. Your insight & knowledge is always helpful to this discussion. And of course you are correct in that everyone should always ignore the occassional heated drama (and I apologize for my part in it - yet I am back in form. I improperly allowed myself to be dragged off topic. My apologies to all.).

New comers to this thread that perhaps jump in at the END of the posts (such as page 10 where we are now) should always remember that this is an important thread, with serious information that could impact your health, regarding influenza or otherwise. Please go back to thread page #1 and catch up with the FACTS!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:13 pm 
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I don't wanna offend you with my simple-minded question, so please teach me:

There are studies that vitamnin D deficiency is bad. Of course it is, isn't any lack of nutrients or vitamines bad for the immune system? E.G. you will get scurvy without vitamine C.
But are there any studies that white people in sunny countries (e.g.: Australia) with higher levels of vitamine D due to sun exposure, have less infections, less cancer and increased life expectancy? If a high Vitamin D level has that positive impact on the immune system this should be quite obvious, shouldn't it?


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