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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:25 pm 
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hman wrote:
I don't wanna offend you with my simple-minded question, so please teach me:

There are studies that vitamnin D deficiency is bad. Of course it is, isn't any lack of nutrients or vitamines bad for the immune system? E.G. you will get scurvy without vitamine C.
But are there any studies that white people in sunny countries (e.g.: Australia) with higher levels of vitamine D due to sun exposure, have less infections, less cancer and increased life expectancy? If a high Vitamin D level has that positive impact on the immune system this should be quite obvious, shouldn't it?

It's more complicated than you would think. Most people work during the hours when UVB is at its highest. When they are home, people often sit in front of the TV or computer. Just because its nice and sunny outside doesn't mean they go out in it.

The other problem is that when they DO go outside for any length of time, many people wear sunscreen or use other methods to avoid the sun. We've been told for years to avoid the sun due to skin cancer. Also, some studies suggest that vitamin D can be washed off your skin. Most people take a shower daily. Another point - consider that some countries have a dress code that prohibits public skin exposure. Oh - and pollution plays a part as well. So many factors....

So I don't think basing a study on where you live is helpful. Rather the studies that are based on vitamin D level are more revealing.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Hman wrote:
Quote:
There are studies that vitamnin D deficiency is bad. Of course it is, isn't any lack of nutrients or vitamines bad for the immune system? E.G. you will get scurvy without vitamine C.
But are there any studies that white people in sunny countries (e.g.: Australia) with higher levels of vitamine D due to sun exposure, have less infections, less cancer and increased life expectancy? If a high Vitamin D level has that positive impact on the immune system this should be quite obvious, shouldn't it?

We need to appreciate the distinction you point to when evaluating the vitamin D research. Correcting a deficiency is one thing; adding extra D when non-deficient quite another research question. I've asked some of the people posting to the thread for studies suggesting extra D is helpful in those without deficiency, but nobody's posted any studies like this to the thread yet. I'll see if I can find any during my break time today and post what I find. Pretty clearly, all the posts so far support finding and correcting vitamin D deficiency in patients. It's an important thing for physicians to be doing. I think most people reading this thread would agree at least on that much. Now, let's see what we can find on the issue of supplementation beyond correcting a deficiency.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:56 pm 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19022954?
Matrix gamma-carboxyglutamic acid protein (MGP), a vitamin K-dependent protein, is involved in regulation of tissue calcification.

http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/ ... tamin.html
I suggested that "vitamin D produces toxicity by depleting the body of vitamin K" and that part of the mechanism by which vitamin A protects against vitamin D toxicity is by preventing the excessive production of vitamin K-dependent proteins, especially matrix Gla protein, also known as MGP:

Darn it all then you have to factor in this 50%.
Almost half of UK women could be suffering from a lack of vitamin A due to a previously undiscovered genetic variation, scientists at Newcastle University have found.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 072051.htm


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:41 pm 
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MKey1 wrote:
We need to appreciate the distinction you point to when evaluating the vitamin D research. Correcting a deficiency is one thing; adding extra D when non-deficient quite another research question. I've asked some of the people posting to the thread for studies suggesting extra D is helpful in those without deficiency, but nobody's posted any studies like this to the thread yet. I'll see if I can find any during my break time today and post what I find. Pretty clearly, all the posts so far support finding and correcting vitamin D deficiency in patients. It's an important thing for physicians to be doing. I think most people reading this thread would agree at least on that much. Now, let's see what we can find on the issue of supplementation beyond correcting a deficiency.
I think the problem is defining what exactly constitutes a deficiency. After reading various opinions, I decided to do my own research.

Prior to this experiment, I had completely avoided the sun for years. I would guess that I was deficient but I did not get tested to verify. I did not take supplements during this experiment.

I checked the UVB rating each day and spent time in the sun (bikini body exposure) when it was over 3. Since I didn't have a tan, I started very slowly at 10 minutes per session. I gradually upped that to 20-40 minutes depending upon the UVB levels and/or time of day. I developed a nice tan but was never in danger of burning. I thought that last was important. My goal was to do this at least 4 times per week. This was surprisingly difficult as we had a very rainy season. Halfway through the experiment, I heard about the possiblity of Vitamin D being washed off. So I adjusted my showering habits accordingly.

After about 2 months (maybe a bit more) I had my Vitamin D levels tested. My results came in at 53. So I agree with those that say optimum levels are between 50-60. It's what my levels would be naturally, so I'm comfortable with that.

EDIT to add: I also had my husband and son tested at the same time. They both refused to take part in my "wacky" experiment. They don't avoid the sun but they don't intentionally seek it out either. My husband's level was 9. My son's was 19.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:16 pm 
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I would say with a level of 9 there is something else going on.

What that could possibly be is as varied as the world is wide.

Meds, Supplements, Illness?

That being said if he has any other symptoms those could be researched and found like a needle in a haystack.

But I don't believe for a second it is ever just about D. But most docs have no problem giving it to you for just that.

Glad your going to keep looking.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:35 pm 
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Awesome work people...big shouts out to...

Jazz...A great summation of all the various factors affecting your ability to obtain vitamin d through the sun. It's not as easy as one thinks.

Silver... your work points to the body working in such a complex symbiotic relationship with a myriad of co-factors that by just focusing on Vitamin D is both futile AND potentially dangerous.

Mkey... wise wise owl. I linked a recent cancer story (it was in regards to Vitamin d) that showed about 80% of tested individuals were deficient BUT... what then after we correct that? How do you keep your level at therapeutic / optimal levels throughout the year? I'm having a tough time finding research on that too. Its criminal we don't know more on this in light of how important it's become.

My two cents....I think that individuals need to take CHARGE of their own health, certainly more-so in respect to D levels than perhaps anything else. It is a concept quite foreign to most Americans. They want to be told what to do and what to take by someone else. You can't blame it all on your doctor IMO on this topic at least. By acknowledging that what works for me might not work for you speaks to our individuality. Just look what Jazz did in that experiment. The results speak for themselves. That is it in a nutshell folks...RESULTS. Get tested. Get tested. Get tested. Do I need to repeat myself folks? Get the 25-Hydroxy test and get it often. I would say the only way to know for sure if you are maintaining good levels (follows MKEY's point) is to get tested once every season. Then you can compare what happens when things get cold and you wrap up more or things are warm and you expose more skin to the sun.

Again....Great work folks - Proud to be a part of this forum!!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:33 pm 
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Lynn wrote:
Can we start a new ph thread, instead of using the vitamin d thread? ;)


I'd be for it. PH is very important but I have been informed to only discuss flu only. Not allowed to talk about the human body here.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:26 pm 
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silvermaran wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Can we start a new ph thread, instead of using the vitamin d thread? ;)


I'd be for it. PH is very important but I have been informed to only discuss flu only. Not allowed to talk about the human body here.


Please use the search button before starting new threads. I know some of you are new here, but both Vitamin D and pH, as well as other alternative therapies, have had much discussion over the last 8 months.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:26 pm 
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Lynn --

Use the topic thread entitled "The Virus Does Not Like an Alkaline Environment" It's one of several older threads that discuss acid-base balance in flu. I've cross-posted your request for a place to talk pH there, so you should be able to find it easily among the active threads without having to search.

Silvermaran wrote:
Quote:
I'd be for it. PH is very important but I have been informed to only discuss flu only. Not allowed to talk about the human body here.

False. Silvermaran...again, to clarify what you've been told. You are allowed to talk about anything you like just so long as it has some relevance to influenza. You have not been told you cannot talk about the human body. Just say how what you want to talk about or cite relates to the topic of flu.

For example:

DON'T: Post a study about inactivating HIV in stored blood products without giving its pertinence with regard to flu.

but...

DO: Post that study about inactivating HIV in stored blood products if the same technology has been shown to work to inactivate influenza virus in stored blood products.


DON'T: Post info on how a vitamin is protective of liver tissue in hepatitis...

DO: Post this study if you can show that liver tissue is damaged in influenza infections and this vitamin is being used or investigated to prevent the damage in these sick flu patients.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:51 pm 
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Can't all this be done PM ?

It's off topic and detracting from the spirit of the thread I began. Thanks guys.

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I post my opinions, they may or may not differ from accepted officialdom, but they ARE protected under free speech. Please consult your doctor (or your own mind) should you choose to take this information further.


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